Monday, January 25, 2010

New Venezuelan Defense Minister : UPDATED

On Saturday, now-former- Vice-President and Minister of Defense Ramón Carrizález *and* his wife, Minister of Environment Yubirí Ortega, are said to have resigned for "personal reasons". Now, word of his official replacement at Defense has come out: it is General-in-Chief Carlos Mata Figueroa, formerly chief of the Operational Strategic Command.

This should get some ears to perk up, as R. Carrizález is by repute a stauch partisan of Diosdado Cabello, who is the man who almost certainly has gained the most by being loyal to Hugo Chávez... and his replacement C. Mata Figueroa is said by sources to be solid with the Bolivarian Revolution... so no shakeup there...

Any bets on what the "personal reasons" were?

Here's one... caveat: it's a rumor at this point:
Me dijeron que renunciaron porque van a nombrar a 4 cubanos generales de la FAN, Amanecera y veremos si los nombran y si los milimaricones se dejan.
According to this source, the regime will appoint 4 Cubans as Generals in the Venezuelan Armed Forces. Let's say that isn't going over well in some quarters, and it could explain the resignation. By not well, I mean it is garnering reactions like this:
"TRAICIÓN A LA PATRIA."
"Treason to the nation." ~ if that perception is widespread in the military... and it well may be... this could be the last straw.

More on this as confirmation and alternate sources come in.

***

Update 27.January

from an article at La Nueva Cuba, an independent Cuban internet daily published through Independent Press Infogroup. (background on them, here.) Key point:
La Habana quiere imponer a Caracas una agenda bien estructurada de medidas destinadas a "garantizar y asegurar la estabilidad y permanencia del régimen bolivariano en el poder.
Los raulistas no confían en la lealtad de los altos mandos venezolanos y buscan reemplazarlos paulatinamente con hombres que gocen del visto bueno de los generales-empresarios, el verdadero grupo de poder en la Isla caribeña.
Una de las exigencias cubanas, considerada el "detonante" de la crisis, es la de que a cuatro coroneles cubanos estacionados en Venezuela, se les conceda de inmediato la nacionalidad venezolana y que los mismos sean promovidos al grado de generales de brigada y nombrados como jefes de unidades élites del ejército venezolano.
They read the situation as a larger plot with Cuba having already in country (Venezuela) four Cuban officers of the rank of Colonel, just parked. The officers would be granted Venezuelan nationality and placed in command of critical brigade formations of the Venezuelan Army to guarantee the control of the elite formations.

((sarcasm))
Anyone else seeing a problem with this besides me?
((/sarcasm))

66 comments:

Roy said...

LDG,

If I might be permitted, the English translation of your rumor is thus:

"They told me that they are resigning because they (the Regime) is going to appoint four Cuban generals to the FAN (National Armed Forces). They will threaten it and we will see if they appoint them and if the military faggots let them."

I will say that your source appears Venezuelan based solely upon style and vulgarity. :)

Don't hesitate to ask me for translations. I can always use the practice.

There are already hundreds of Cubans, if not thousands in key security and intelligence positions, throughout the country. There is a theory with a considerable amount of weight behind it, that the brains behind Chavez are in Havana, and that we are actually being "colonized" by Cuba.

As absurd as that might sound on the face of it, it could explain Chavez's success in the face of the fact that other than having a talent for oration and awesome political instincts, he really isn't smart enough to have developed the strategic plan for his international and regional ambitions all be himself.

Damn, if we don't live in interesting times!

L.Douglas Garrett said...

@Roy

"I will say that your source appears Venezuelan based solely upon style and vulgarity. :)"

That would be so. on both counts.
((grin))

I would suggest, however, that if I can cite such a quote and allude to its meaning, then translations are probably not a major problem. Thank you, none the less.

Agreed, the Cuban involvement is well known as you said. Whether *this particular event* is tied to Cuban involvement at the highest levels, however... we shall see.

Susan said...

Roy-- you are wonderful! love the "military faggots"

any bets as to why the resignation? simple minded me says Chavez is so delusional and paranoid, he probably thought the defense minister was out to get him too!

Susan said...

he does turn on his own too!

Susan said...

but this makes good sense as to the regination-
4 Cubans as Generals in the Venezuelan Armed Forces.

Susan said...

and it does not surpise me to know there are hundreds and more Cubans holding security and intelligence positions.

L.Douglas Garrett said...

*posted for Marie, who is having trouble getting into Blogger right now*

***
Marie said...

Roy, not to nit pick, but "amanecerá y veremos" simply means "let's wait and see". The rest was fine. Anyway, there are new rumors of another dead officer in Fuerte Tiuna... at this point it's still unconfirmed and I really doubt it will be confirmed any time soon. Students are revving up for another round of protests today.

As for Cuban "colonization" that's probably what has people riled up. Cuba and its G2 are the "situation room" behind Chavez' success; that and all the Cubans that are in the military and particularly the National Guard. Many of the robocops are Cubans and virulently hostile. Yesterday, once again, students reported that the most violent members of the NG spoke with unmistakeable Cuban accents.

Agreed, Chávez, as you say has good political instincts but the rest came from elsewhere and I would posit, not just Cuba.

***

L.Douglas Garrett said...

personal note @Susan

Good job over on FB about all this.

Roy said...

@Susan,

The vulgarity was not mine. I just translated. However, Venezuelan vernacular typically is... colorful.

@Marie,

Thanks for the correction. I confused "amanecer" (to dawn) with "amanezar" (to threaten).

You appear well informed as to the situation here. At times, I feel at a loss to try and explain the situation in a few words. To truly understand, one needs to understand the whole context, without which is seems even more insane than it already is.

@All,

There are currently rumors circulating about "something happening" in the military. They are all highly unsubstantiated, but they have the people in the street buzzing.

L.Douglas Garrett said...

@All

I've had rumors come in of: a Chavez heart attack; a revolt; troops shooting each other; ... and so on.

I say those are all "manufactured" rumors, and I'm getting some confirmation from sources with access that those rumors are G2 fabrications being tossed out to the rumor mill to sow confusion.

Don't get me wrong; there is something afoot... but the regime is doing its level best to roll out as much disinformation as possible right now.

Confirming sources, second-sourcing, and doubt are your friends right now, IMO.

Roy said...

LDG,

Once again, pardon my ignorance. You said, "those rumors are G2 fabrications...".

What does the "G2" mean?

And I wish to second your advice. In the absence of hard information, the void quickly fills up with soft information or rumors.

L.Douglas Garrett said...

@Roy

"What does the "G2" mean?"

Forgive my shorthand, if you please. The term "G2" (taken from the US army intelligence officer's designation) is used to mean a military intelligence service. To be more precise, the player in question is Cuba's Dirección de Inteligencia (DI) operation in Venezuela and its Venezuelan counterpart Dirección Nacional de los Servicios de Inteligencia y Prevención (DISIP).

L.Douglas Garrett said...

(more)

Of course, as no name survives long in Hugo's Venezuela... I just noticed that (DISIP) is now properly called Servicio Bolivariano de Inteligencia (SEBIN).

anyway, those are the disinformers spoken of, above.

Roy said...

LDG,

Thanks. I should have figured that out myself. I am not a military man, but I have read enough books that as soon as I read it I slapped my forehead and said, "Duhhh."

Interesting about the name change of the Venezuelan Intelligence Agency. As of fairly recently, the press here is still using "DISIP".

Based upon his speech yesterday, it appears that Chavez wants to change his title to "El Pueblo". In a statement reminiscent of Louis the 14th of France, he said (actually, he sorta screamed it) "Yo soy el Pueblo."

Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPhPfmQOtf0&feature=player_embedded

It is short and even if you don't understand Spanish, it is still worth watching just to have an idea of what we are dealing with.

Susan said...

Bandera's comment about the prime minister- I am like like the inbetween here-
I asked about the Cubans-
"i am not ure about the cubans... it woud be outrageous!
it is interesting that in the middle of this megacrisis the family resigns. the venezuelans are stunned because its the first time a high officer tenders resignation. on another note and irrelevant of the causes that made Goriparrot devoid of Vice President (when he is revealed marxist, catholic, apostolic and bolibananian and the enegy and public services crisis), min of defense (colombia and the imperial threat) and min of environment, just when we are defending a principle out of Copenhague! it could be a recently diagnosed ilness, could be a preemptive move by an insignifican goon who wuddenly rose to the pinacle and is now on a couple of million dollars on a side deal made behind the shadow. who knows? does it matter?
it will. but for know what matters is tht those positions are open! all bets are off! my opinion is that he needs a reasonable wo/man that is palatable to both sides but will choose someone so repulsive it'll ser as guaranty against tyranicide! go figure!
4-F DIA DE LUTO NACIONAL
Salud, BN *

Susan said...

Alexis Marrero, one of the Venezuelans, sends me notices because I had joined the anti-Chavez movement on FB a few months ago- this is early am- on today's events-
"
"En este momento en el estado Zulia comienza las protestas de los estudiantes, los marchistas protestas por el segundo cierre de RCTV , sino también por las forma violenta que los cuerpos de seguridad del estado han reprimido a los estudiantes en Mérida, en Barcelona, Caracas y Valencia, pero a eso le están sumando los contaste cortes de luz y la violación de los derechos fundamentales de los venezolanos"

Looks like the students are now protesting in Zulia

Susan said...

another notice was sent to which stated Ledezma might be detained for his support for the Venezuelans and also for his uprising support- (this was yesterday's notice sent to me)
I checked out his FB and I don't see anything stating this but he hasn't posted in a few days-
Also Alexis sent me a notice to tell me his FB was closed down again, this is the second time, so he has opened a new account-

@Roy- good job! I speak Spanish fluently but I do not read and write as Marie does. So I missed the difference between amenazar y amanecer- and I agree Venezuelan venacular is very colorful- I am constantly having to ask these people what was said!

Susan said...

@Roy-

he should have screamed: Yo so la mierda.

Roy said...

@Susan,

Your post by Banderas was nearly incomprehensible, but I did note one statement that I thought should be corrected, "the venezuelans are stunned because its the first time a high officer tenders resignation."

Some Venezuelans have short memories. In November of 2007, Raul Isaias Baduel, former Four Star General and Minister of Defense, resigned his post citing grave differences of opinion with Hugo Chavez. You can read the story in his own words here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/opinion/01baduel.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Baduel was arrested by DISIP on 2 April 2009 and is currently languishing in jail awaiting trial on corruption charges. He is held largely incommunicado, and has practically disappeared from the Venezuelan conscience.

Susan said...

and he is not talking-
In a press release Carrizalez said he had resigned for “strictly personal” reasons.

Susan said...

Bandera is not fluent in English but she tries- and she is a total radical. I posted her comment so one could feel her rage.

But I am going to paste your mention of Baduel- thanks for this info-

Susan said...

@Roy-- off the topic-

how long have you lived in Venezuela? I clicked on your name-
Nueva Esparta

Susan said...

I am trying to get the youtube video- Yo soy el Pueblo- No luck

L.Douglas Garrett said...

@Roy and Susan

Gen. Baduel was taken into custody without warrant by "regular" military intelligence (DIM). Here is the report as covered here at CompHyp at the time.

Susan said...

I am not running the tele 24/7 but I am not seeing any coverage on Venezuela?

Marie said...

Susan;

You will seldom see anything about Venezuela. This has been going on for such a long time that few people are interested (kind of like Cuba and it's 50 years of the Castro regime). The press only mention Chávez, and by default Venezuela, when he says something outlandish.

Doug:
There is definitely something afoot, but nothing has come out. Hard-liner,Elías Jaua, has been appointed Vice President and as you reported, Carlos Mata Figueroa is the new Defense Minister. There have been protests today, but peaceful.

L.Douglas Garrett said...

@Marie

Hurrah! You made it in!

Aye, the VP pick is party-hardline all the way.

@ALL

There is an UPDATE in the main body of this thread. A little more about four Cuban "Generals" has come out.

Susan said...

@Marie-

I was just reading about the new appointees and I see you beat me to it- And I am truly disappointed by the little or no Venezuela coverage in the news. These are desperate people, aside from the electricity, food, et al shortages there- recession and so on!

I haven't read anything about the protests turning violent today either on FB- but they are all up in are up in arms there-

Susan said...

in your new post-

Carrizález's opposition to Cuban demands has led him to resign as Minister of Defense.

also mentioned, the Cubans don't even trust Chavez, hence, their putting in their own-

L.Douglas Garrett said...

@Susan at 1118 above

((nodnod))

Marie said...

Ahem....

There is a little pesky thing in play here.. that nasty word "sovereignty" and that other dirty word "Constitution." Chavez and his minions are in fact giving away the country to Raul et.al. What the Cubans were unable to do via an invasion in the 60s, they are now getting without having fired a shot. Venezuelans are understandably pissed.

Roy said...

@Susan,

I have lived in Venezuela for four years now... long enough to pick on some of the nuance in the politics.

On the video, I just tried cutting and pasting it into my browser and it worked fine. Unfortunately, I still haven't learned how to make html links. I am sort of a dinosaur that way.

As for international interest in Venezuela, after all the years of abuse that other countries have taken from Chavez, combined with the fact that it was the Venezuelans that voted for him repeatedly, I don't think that they are going to garner a great deal of international sympathy.

My own sympathy for the Venezuelan people is often sorely tested...

Susan said...

not all is quiet-
Riot happens during visitation hours at La Planta prison near Caracas, Venezuela

Riot leaves eight people dead and 16 injured, penitentiary director says.

L.Douglas Garrett said...

OffTopic @Roy

the hot link command string is manually entered as:

<
a href="
***put the URL here***
">
***put the text you want to appear here***
<
/a>

Note that I've broken the tags by putting this on seperate lines. Hope that helps.

Susan said...

@Roy-
i cut and pasted too several times and nada!!!!

as for Chavez being elected... cough, it happened here too!

but for him being elected, wasn't there a lot of cheating and threats?

Roy said...

LDG,

Thanks! Though, this is not very intuitive, is it?

Here is the video link as a test:

Yo soy el pueblo.

I hope this works, otherwise, it is just going to annoy everyone. :)

@All

If there are any specialists in abnormal psychology reading this, I would love to hear an analysis of his facial expressions and body language. My amateur read on it is that he is well on his way toward a complete psychotic breakdown.

Marie said...

@Susan - your 1152

Right you are. There are elections and "elections???" Venezuelan elections fall in the latter category. Dirty tricks abounded and the elections slated for this year will be more of the same. The ones in 2012 will be much like those in Iraq (in Saddam's time) and Cuba and that "haven" of "democracy" Zimbabwe.

Roy: Going through the motions does not guarantee that an election is clean. As for Chávez mental state, yes he's probably rounding the bend, but has not reached home yet. Waiting for him to do Venezuela a favor and go "daft" as my British friend says, is not an option. He can still do even more damage than he has already done. Doesn't that seem to be the sign of our times? Choosing the route that will lead to less damage.

Roy said...

@Susan,

Yes, there has been cheating and fraud in the elections. But, none of that truly absolves the Venezuelan people for their part in the charade. One of the beauties of democracy is "the people" are responsible for their vote and if the system tries to cheat them, they are responsible for not letting their government get away with it.

The repeated failures and missed opportunities by the Venezuelan Opposition have been spectacular. By and large, the fight put up by the establishment opposition against Chavez has resembled the Polish cavalry charge against German tanks at the opening of WWII. The university students have had far greater success then the professional politicians.

A large part of the problem is that the establishment opposition has not admitted to themselves that it was their policies and administration that created the political environment that led to Chavez in the first place. And, they STILL don't get it! That is one of the reasons Chavez has been able to stay in power. As bad as Chavez is, no one has been able to produce ideas and candidates that are clearly morally superior.

It has been said that in a democracy, though the people may not get the government they need, they always get the government they deserve. I will concede there are exceptions to this, but in the case of Venezuela, I think it is applicable.

L.Douglas Garrett said...

@Roy

How perfectly said, but I bet you didn't intend it so:

"...has resembled the Polish cavalry charge against German tanks at the opening of WWII."

That would be the 'charge' that never happened. It's fairly well documented that the only formation charge by mounted elements of the WWII Polish Cavalry was against dismounted infantry... but in common media it is held up as an example of "heroic, yet stupidly futile"...

...which would be about the impression the average "major" politician in the Venezuelan Oppos has made, to date.

sadly.

Susan said...

Yo soy un pueblo, carajo! No soy un individual, yo soy el pueblo. El pueblo se respecta, blah and blah!

My analysis, Evo sent him more coca!

And opinion here... aside from ballot cheating and threats, many of the people there are not well educated, indigent, and a great orator, as he comes across, would probably mislead many of these and "here is my vote" thinking...(cough, it happened here too)

The students have more success probably because they come in larger numbers as to the political opposition who end up in a camp, jail, or in hiding?

Bottom line, he is a bad person! But then Chavez land may become Raulito land!

Marie said...

Yes, there have been missed opportunities, ineptness, bad faith and everything else you may want on the opposition's side, and yes, politics before the rise of Chávez did pave the way for him - but -- as for the last few elections, with a stacked Electoral Council, a stacked Supreme Court, a mono-party (pun intended) General Assembly, subservient military, y pare de contar - there was very little that could be done to protest results. If you have no recourse, where do you turn? If there are no independent institutions in government and no checks and balances, what is left? It is not as simple as it looks on the surface. Oh, and I forgot to add, there are many personal interests at play -- even right now among opposition parties - with an eye to getting a place at the trough and a measure of questionable power, or what they think will be power, because if the elections are held, if Chávez allows opposition members to be elected - what real power will they have? I'll bet a million that they will have none, or at least none that will matter. I could go on and on, but to what end? Venezuelans have to find their own way out of this morass, by any means available.

Susan said...

I posted Baduel on Bandera Negra's FB-
(Here is her response)
"
under his command the army started shouting the eschatological slogan of socialism, country or death!

so... not quite. in the speech during his retirement as minPOPO/defense and active military he cited what he simply called differences of criteria. he then jumped against Goriparrot with a proosal for yet another constituent assembly! he is one of the original ploters and the only one who maintained his participation a secret inside the army. now he is one of the many political prisoners of this dictatorship. many have been asked to resign, almost none have resigned. beleive it or not! jajajajaa"

(what say you?)

Roy said...

@WDG,

Damn it! Now I will never be able to use that analogy again! :)

Actually, one of my pet hobbies is debunking urban and other myths. That is one story I had never thought to question up till now. However, since you have, it does seem ridiculous that it could have ever happened. After all, how many would have actually followed the order to charge?

L.Douglas Garrett said...

@Roy

"...how many would have actually followed the order to charge?"

Ah, but that also completes your analogy (no matter how unintended): Knowing the party-in-power has complete and authoritarian control of the National Election Commision, and of the system of voting, and the courts that could be appealed to... how many "major" Oppos politicians would be willing to "charge", ne?

Susan said...

Alexis, who now has a new FB account, just posted this about an hour ago- Globovision-

They were released the 13 students arrested in Maracay last Tuesday during protests that were staged in the capital of Aragua.

(amongst the students, they are trying to keep the protests peaceful)

Roy said...

@Bandera,

All of that is true. I was only pointing out that the recent resignations of high-level officials were not the first.

In my opinion, in spite of his participation in the first coup, Baduel was not as bad as some. In his speeches, I see something resembling principles. It was for these reasons he resigned. He was not forced out.

In comparison to Diosdado Cabello and others in the regime, Raul Isaias Baduel was a boy scout.

Susan said...

a couple comments about La Nueva Cuba link- in essence, these both said they said they have heard about these Cubans but as right now, nothing has been determined if this to be true. But then one doesn't hear everything...

Susan said...

@Roy..

copying your comment to Bandera.

Roy said...

@LDG,

The responsibility to defend the constitution lies:

Firstly with the elected and appointed officials.

Then with the military.

And finally, if they are failed by all of the above, it is the right and responsibility of the citizens themselves to revolt and restore their liberties.

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.” — Thomas Jefferson

L.Douglas Garrett said...

@Roy

((big grin))
The choir hears you, Padre.

Marie said...

@Roy

Yes, the citizens hear you, but getting from here to there is problematic.

If anyone is interested, the student protest will continue. There is a call for civil society to accompany the students tomorrow and congregate at Plaza Brion in Caracas. They are not saying what they will do.

If anyone is interested, this blogspot will be updating events in Valencia: http://jennymendoza.blogspot.com/

Susan said...

I was just reading Bandera- I love her reference to Chavez as goriparrot-now that I know what it means... her own lingo-

el gorila ya que es exacto a los militarotes que ausumen el poder en todos los páises subdesarrollados, y el loro, pájaro que se la pasa hablando.
(a military gorilla who assumes powers in underdeveloped countries and the parrot who just keeps talking)
I am now going to refer Chavez as goriparrot.

Susan said...

headed to the Venezuela side to ask about Plaza Brion

L.Douglas Garrett said...

OffTopic @ALL

be advised, M. Zelaya has left the building.

now, back to your regularly scheduled Hugo.

Thank you.

Susan said...

I got booted out of the computer and when I came back on, I saw your new post on Zelaya, Se Vaya- since he is going to the Dominican Republic, he can hike over to Haiti and help out!

Susan said...

i see on Globovision there has been some international notice on the closing of RCTV-

Estados Unidos, Colombia, Perú, Panamá y Canadá are now voicing this was an attack on freedom of speech- (duh!)

Roy said...

@All,

It doesn't have to be as bloody as all that. I would suggest that the Opposition read up on the Velvet, Rose, and Orange Revolutions. This sort of strategy requires exquisite planning and organization, but it is doable. I would say that Venezuela has all the elements needed for such a strategy to be successful.

I was personally present in the Republic of Georgia to witness the Rose Revolution. It was a remarkable occurrence. In my opinion, the only element lacking for such a strategy in Venezuela is the selection of one leader that all of the Opposition can agree upon.

One of the hallmarks of the protests associated with these revolutions was that the protesters didn't go home at the end of the day. They camped in the streets and stayed there, growing in numbers each day until they became a force that could not be contained or beaten.

Marie said...

"In my opinion, the only element lacking for such a strategy in Venezuela is the selection of one leader that all of the Opposition can agree upon."

Therein lies the crux of the problem, and the other part of the problem lies in the makeup of the National Guard, Police, and other forces. In the Orange Revolution the forces said they would not go against their own people. Could or will the same happen in Venezuela?

Susan said...

RCTV closed down but Eva Golinger, Editor-in-Chief, has a newspaper in circulation. (I HAD to go check her out!)

Our Correo del Orinoco International – English Edition for the week of January 29, 2010 is now available...

Susan said...

this is the only English paper there? her version of what goes on? I was reading it what she posted-- Lord!!!!

Susan said...

Eva-

This issue provides insightful analysis and information about: Evo Morales’ recent inauguration in Bolivia – the second historical term for the world’s only indigenous president; Why Venezuelans march on January 23; The Bolivarian Counterattack – mass marches and campaigns launched nationwide in Venezuela; A new report from the US revealing Venezuela has the largest oil reserves on Earth; Violent protests end with two students killed in Venezuela on Monday in reaction to legal sanctions against a cable television station that refuses to follow the law – How many lives is corporate media worth?; An exciting metrocable system changes the lives of Caracas’ low income communities; Police fight against gender violence; and our newest stellar columnist, Cindy Sheehan, on corporate rule in the US; in addition to many other interesting and exciting topics.

L.Douglas Garrett said...

@Marie and Roy

A better representative model is the People Power Revolution (Philippines, 1986). It was a mass movement, but it required both a move by Enrile and Ramos that would have been a coup *and* some pretty important defections from regular forces to join the popular movement. Even then, it was a damn near-run thing.

@Susan

English language newspapers in Venezuela (that aren't run by a paid flunky of the regime) = 1. El Universal.

@All

I'm to rest shortly. 0800hrs local and it was a long night.

be well and safe.

Susan said...

gracias LDG-

I see the students are going to hang out black flags in front of their homes as part of their movement. (FB) Well, they are circulating the notice to hang the black flags.

Empecemos a colocar nuestra bandera negra, frente a nuestras casas, mostremos con este signo nuestro rechazo a este gobierno.
Debemos mostrar nuestro descontento nada mejor que comenzando a hacerlos con signos claros, que , signos exteriores que den clara señal del rechazo a este gobierno.
(Alexis M. finally got his account on FB- he has been closed down twice now and he is relentless... I had to confirm his request for being a friend several times!!! Which tells me, he is being watched)

Susan said...

sounds like in Zulia there is much going on- along with the National Guard resisting the students- injured students and much more aggressive protests. posted five minutes ago on FB.

Muchos heridos en el Zulia, las protestas son cada momentos más fuertes, en ese estado, la Guardia nacional está actuando represivamente en contra de los estudiantes

Susan said...

@Roy-
much thanks to you as I had to read up on the Rose Revolution and
the ousting of President Shevardnadze.... 2003
as you mentioned you were there so I, clueless Susan, checked it out-

Susan said...

Marie, Roy, and LDG--

I hang in here for the fun as I sure can't match your wits! xxxx